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HARDtalk: "Enlightened moderation has become a joke"

-- Minister of state for Religious Affairs Aamer Liaqat Hussain

* There is a powerful ISI within the ISI
* My life is in danger
* U-turn on religion column was wrong
* President Musharraf is very much the Attaturk Pakistan needs
* The PML-Q and the MMA will finally form an alliance
* A consensus fatwa against suicide attacks will be announced within a couple of weeks
* Islamic laws could be enforced in Islamic societies like the one in the Holy Prophet’s (peace be upon him) era only
* CII recommendations often go against the MMA stance

Minister of state for Religious Affairs Aamer Liaqat Hussain gave an exclusive interview to Daily Times’ Resident Editor in Karachi, Sarfaraz Ahmed, and Staff Reporters, Hasan Mansoor and Irfan Ali. Following are excerpts of the interview:

Daily Times: What is the role of your ministry vis-à-vis President Pervez Musharraf’s enlightened moderation theory?

Aamer Liaquat Hussain: We have not been able to change the basic structure of the ministry despite hectic effort. There are two aspects that we should keep in mind in this regard, which are superficial and internal. We have raised the point that our ministry is for religious affairs and not for Islamic affairs. This is an important ministry and its role is not merely limited to dealing with Haj and Umra.

It is necessary to work against the anti-Islam propaganda unleashed both by the West and extremist Maulvis. Extremist Maulvis are not the friends of Islam and they too are portraying the wrong picture of the religion. The negative propaganda should be countered effectively with positive strategy.

We are establishing a propagation cell which will work within the Council of Islamic Ideology (CII). It will consist of religious scholars and not the Maulvis. We’ll send them abroad as goodwill ambassadors to address various institutions and universities, introduce true Islam and try to erase misperceptions about it. This cell will start working from July. Respected scholars like Dr Manzoor Ahmed, who knows a lot about philosophy and Islam, will be part of the cell. President Pervez Musharraf has appreciated the idea and asked us to go ahead with it.

We are also going to form a council at the national level, in which we’ll include Ulema and Mashaikh of Sunni, Shia, Deobandi, Barelvi and other sects. The council will plan how to bring an end to furooi (minor) disputes. People generally fear violence whenever Ashura or Milad-un-Nabi processions are taken out but they should not have to fear this. The council will decide if slogans like Ya Rasoolullah can be chanted or Assalat-o-Assalam can be recited before saying Azan. The council will have around 400 Ulema and Mashaikh and it will meet like our National Assembly at Jinnah Centre once or twice a month. It may take one or two years but will certainly help resolve such petty issues.

Here I should announce that we are also trying to obtain a unanimous fatwa (decree) against suicide attacks on mosques and imambargahs in Pakistan. Religious scholars Mufti Munib-ur-Rehman, a Barelvi Sunni, Allama Mushtaq Najafi, a respected Shia, and Hafiz Mohammad Salafi, an Ahle-Hadith scholar have already signed the fatwa. We are asking Deobandi scholars Maulana Taqi Usmani and Maulana Rafi Usmani to sign the fatwa.

DT: What are the Deobandi scholars’ reservations on the draft of the fatwa that has already been signed by the scholars of Shia, Barelvi and Ahle-Hadith schools of thought?

ALH: The Deobandi scholars have reservations that the fatwa should not be applied in the context of what is happening in Iraq and Palestine. However, they have agreed that suicide attacks on innocent faithful in mosques and imambargahs in Pakistan are unjustified and killing our innocent fellow citizens. They understood that we are not getting their fatwa against jihad. There is no jihad in peaceful places. The religious scholars will decree over media that suicide attacks are haram (forbidden).

DT: Maulana Fazalur Rehman (the opposition leader in the National Assembly) insists that the recommendations of the CII should be implemented in letter and in spirit.

ALH: The Maulana’s demand is justified. We’ll ensure that the CII’s recommendations are implemented but the Maulana doesn’t know that this will go against the religious alliance (Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal) of which he is the secretary general. I should tell you that the council has not been rigid on the Hudood Ordinance and the karo kari (honour killing) menace. We are trying our level best that these recommendations are brought to the National Assembly soon.

DT: The West has expressed concern about the discriminatory laws, particularly the Hudood Ordinance, which exist in Pakistan.

ALH: The West considers it [Hudood Ordinance] a discriminatory law and it has formed a perception against it, but I would say Hudood (limits) are exercised everywhere, in all countries. The Hudood are necessary but the Hudood laws were formulated by General Zia’s regime.

There is no judicial system here in Pakistan. Recently in Karachi a father confessed he had killed his children but he has not yet been awarded death. There are many such cases in our society which have been pending for long and are victims of delayed justice. In principle, we’ll not let the Hudood Ordinance continue in its existing shape. Ziaul Haq enforced it to perpetuate his regime and control Islamic extremists. The Ordinance is one-sided and discriminatory.

DT: The government frequently utters words like “enlightened moderation” but in practice it is sticking to the one-step-forward, two-steps-back policy. Isn’t the inclusion of the religion column in passports one such example?

ALH: Actually this term has become a joke now. Ministers and advisers frequently use this term to please President Musharraf but they don’t understand what it really means. Enlightened moderation is actually the second name of Islam. When Holy Prophet Muhammad (SAW) ordered people not to bury their daughters alive, it was enlightenment. When he signed the Medina and Hudebia accords, it was moderation. As far as the religion column is concerned, I was the only person in the cabinet who opposed the decision to include it in passports.

DT: But your ruling coalition’s dominant partner, the PML, shares views identical to the MMA’s on these issues?

ALH: The Muslim League-Q and MMA are the king’s parties. The architects of these parties brought the MMA in as an alternative player. But at that time they didn’t think that the international scenario could change so drastically and this player could not be allowed to play and the selectors would have to nominate someone else in their place. You know well who these selectors are! But now they have been entrapped. They don’t know that the world believes in logic and it wants Pakistan to lead Muslims. To lead the Ummah, we have to give up rigidity. Islam has always been flexible. For instance, on the issue about Israel’s recognition, Pakistan will have to play an important role. It is better to take a decision right now. Now India and Pakistan embrace each other. Internationally, the scenario is changing. People want to resolve disputes through dialogue instead of going to war.

The MMA is not a new commodity. These were jihadis whom the ISI sent with weapons to Afghanistan to fight. And President Musharraf has himself been saying so. But the president appreciates the ISI now because it is now arresting these jihadis. The PML-Q and the MMA will finally form an alliance. It will not be surprising that PML-N, the MMA and the PML-Q make an alliance while the PPP and the MQM line up in one queue at a common forum. There is no path in between. Either Pakistan will become Iran or Turkey.

DT: Pakistan needs an Ata Turk to become Turkey. But President Musharraf doesn’t look like Ata Turk, does he?

ALH: He is very much Ata Turk. There is great mental similarity between him and the late Turkish leader. But I may say that he is not as free as the Turkish leader was. President Musharraf considers many things before taking decisions. I should make it clear that we do not and cannot make Pakistan a replica of the present Turkey because it is ultra liberal. But we don’t want a Pakistan where intolerance prevails.

The government took a u-turn on the religion column issue. There was no logic for that. Someone said that Qadianis would go to Saudi Arabia for Haj. I told Maulana Fazlur Rehman that the Qadianis (Ahmadis) could go there from the UK, Germany or any other Western country. But I do believe that some enemies had ‘Islamic Republic of Pakistan’ removed from the Pakistani passport, which actually agitated the religious parties and then they stuck to their religion column demand. I may also say that purging material from educational curriculum for it being ‘undesirable’ was also a bad decision. Dr Abdul Qadeer Khan and Dr Abdul Salam studied the same curriculum, had they not?

DT: You said the ISI was the architect of jihadis and you said now the ISI is arresting the jihadis. Now who is putting hurdles in the way of the government and who is actually threatening enlightened moderation?

ALH: Many people told me not to make such statements but I am outspoken. There is an ISI within the ISI, the former more powerful than the original. They were the godfathers of the Taliban. Who attacked President Musharraf? Only Army personnel can do this. A third attempt on President Musharraf’s life is also possible. There are people who are enemies of Musharraf Saheb. They will not spare me either. My life is in danger too. President Musharraf should be careful about his life. He has his enemies within.

DT: Do you have any evidence to substantiate your claim with regard to “an ISI within the ISI”?

ALH: Yes, there is plenty of evidence. For example, look at the tenor and tone of MMA chief Qazi Husain Ahmed. From where does he derive the confidence to claim that he would have Musharraf kicked out of the army very soon. Yes, he has got ‘some people’ behind him.

DT: What do you mean by “enemies within”? Does it mean the Army?

ALH: Look, President Musharraf has on a number of occasions told the nation that the real threat to the country was from within. Which means there exists an internal threat, far greater than any outer one. Well, internal threat includes the Army.

DT: You are trying to portray the real face of Islam. Is there any effort to tell the army’s junior officers during training about it?

ALH: Yes. There is an institution under the Military Intelligence in Rawalpindi where I am going to deliver lectures on Islam and terrorism. Besides, I am preparing sermons which will be delivered at Friday prayers at mosques in the barracks. What did the Holy Prophet (SAW) do in 40 years? He emphasised character-building. The exercise to declare other Muslims infidel will not be allowed to continue. I am preparing these sermons on the directives of President Musharraf.

DT: Are you the only person who has been tasked to prepare sermons?

ALH: No, there are many others. But I will be playing an important role in this respect.

DT: You talked of Turkey and Iran as models. But there are proponents of the Malaysian model too, in Pakistan? Have you taken that into consideration?

ALH: That model can’t be introduced here. I have gone there. They are very disciplined and literate. They train people for Haj by making models of Ka’aba and the Mina ground. If we make models somewhere on Super highway, people will believe Ka’aba is here and they will start performing Haj here. Basically, it depends upon education. Only 8.5 percent people are literate in Pakistan and most of them live in urban areas. If illiteracy comes into religion, it plays havoc. The media also plays important role, which is not positive here. For several years people have been watching announcers on TV with dupattas and suddenly they watch vulgarity on private TV channels. This too is wrong. A religious scholar named Jalalpuri said in a column in an Urdu newspaper that watching TV was sinful and whoever had a TV set in his house would not go to paradise. What will his follower do?

DT: Is it fair criticism of you that since you belong to the MQM, you overreact to the MMA because they are your party’s rivals?

ALH: I never did so. I am proud that I am in the MQM but I don’t overplay issues. I touch on general issues. The Aga Khan Board and religious seminaries are general issues. Qazi Hussain Ahmed and Maulana Fazlur Rehman call me their child. Actually, some quarters dislike me in the programme Aalim Online. People weep when I pray on TV and nobody weeps when they pray. They dislike me for this reason.

DT: Is there any chance that the MQM, PPP and other enlightened and liberal parties will make alliance?

ALH: I have discussed this with you earlier. The MQM has never shut the door on talks. In the past we have allied with the PPP. It was a bitter experience. To try again is not a bad idea if this has to be done in the larger interest of country, nation and the religion. It will not be surprising. The MQM can do this.

DT: Your senior minister (Ijazul Haq) also sides with the PML-Q and MMA on some issues. Will your ministry be able to achieve its target?

ALH: There is a good working relationship between the both of us. When I talk to him and present my case with reason, he is convinced. You are right that he is somehow inclined to these parties.

DT: There has been a controversy on your bachelor’s and doctorate degrees and that you submitted fake degrees to the election commission to be eligible to contest general elections in 2002.

ALH: I had done my MBBS in 1995. I had written a 1,500-page thesis on Islam and Terrorism, which I mailed to various online universities. A response came from Texas University, which offered me of an honorary PhD degree while the Trinity College and University awarded me three honorary degrees; BA, MA and PhD way before the elections. When I came to Karachi from Dubai to file my nomination for the general elections in 2002, I needed a degree to become eligible. I first went to Jamshoro to get my MBBS degree from the University of Sindh but they made delays. Then I applied to the University of Karachi for a certificate of equivalence to the honorary bachelor’s degree so that I could file my nomination papers. I informed the relevant authorities that I would file the degree afterwards.

I did not get the equivalent provisional degree at gunpoint. It is untrue that I got fake degrees to contest the elections. The Trinity College and University has a faculty of Islamic Studies and those who contradict this are liars. I wanted to respond to them but my party and well-wishers asked me not to become part of unnecessary controversy. My opponents claimed that they were responded to by the online university within 20 minutes, when they asked them about the credibility of my honorary degrees. This is the age of the Internet and online response comes within minutes, so this should not be a matter of surprise for such people.

DT: But your degrees don’t say these are honorary?

ALH: If they did not label them honorary, that is what they chose to do. I never said that these are not honorary. I have committed no wrongdoing or fraud. I stick to my position. Nor does the online university lack credibility. I did not purchase the degrees. Besides, I should make it clear that it is a recognised university. And this fact can be judged from the fact that it also awarded an honorary degree to people of the calibre of Dr Henry Kissinger. The university doesn’t award degrees on payment of fees alone. It also seeks evidence of your ability and qualification before awarding a degree. *

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